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Vespa 300 performance

Last post 03-24-2012 08:59 AM by Mike Holland. 47 replies.
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  • 11-09-2011 11:50 AM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    adamtassell:

    DaveO:

     Well, report please. What happened?

     

    Busy roads and very windy! I will give my take and silver flyer may give a slightly different one - distances being subjective. 

    We had a few races from 0-80ish, I am about 92kg, silver flyer is about 80ish(?). 

    First run was me on the 300- I got a slight jump at the start which led to a big and cheating win- sorry

    Run 2 was fairer and led to a 2 bike length win to the 300 ie a one bike gap.

    Next we swapped bikes and had a fair run this time the 300 won more comfortably by 4 bikes gap, ie ahead by 5 bikes. 

    Silver flyer may say a different set of lengths- obviously highly subjective!

    Mods on the 300 were pm tuning pipe with baffle in, polini variator and Malossi moderate clutch springs. The 250 had dr pulley sliders and Leo Vince exhaust with no baffle (roar) standard clutch springs. 

    We did not really go over about 80 but it seemed clear to me that as speed increase the 300 was less able to pull away. In fact I estimate the 300 and 250 were well and truly even in acceleration by 80 and possibly as early as about 60

    i will agree with that. but it was what i expected that the 300 will pull ahead.

    the modifications to my scooter were as stated lv pipe without baffle, dr pulley sliders plus a dr pulley HiT clutch with heavier spring. that was the noise on take off.

    i would love to try on a longer stretch of road plus with a standard 300 as well. anyone up for a test.

    adam it would be interesting to see how your scooter goes without its baffle.Big SmileYes

    argentum melle
  • 11-09-2011 12:32 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    Mike Holland:

     The Malossi cylinder and head will give the 300 about 25% more power, and make it a bit higher revving, more like a 250. But then if you want more speed, there is a gear-up kit (which will lose you a bit of accceleration).

    An aftermarket variator, or Dr.Pulley sliders, will also improve take-off, and maybe add a little bit to top speed.

    Then Malossi have a new gadget in the pipeline  -  an electronic gizmo that overrides the signal from the Lambda sensor in the exhaust and makes the EFI set the mixture a bit richer. They aren't out yet, so there are no reviews available, but I have one on order for my 250. Piaggio set the mixture weak to meet emission guidelines, so there is some room for improvement here.

    Mike 

     

    Mike,

    Isn't some of the 300 advantage in the fact that it comes standard with a 4-valve head? So won't adding a V4 head give both capacity scoots about the same. 

    PM tuning has a version of the Dobeck unit won't that be similar to the Malossi unit? Can richen the mixture a bit. BTW Dobeck units for scooters only have a Cruise and Wide Open setting because with CVT there is no "acceleration" mode like a bike with gears.

     

    Mike (other) but younger (just)

     

  • 11-09-2011 12:57 PM In reply to

    • DaveO
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-13-2010
    • Cow Flat NSW
    • Posts 290

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

     Thanks, people. Fascinating stuff.

    I wonder how much difference the tuning bits make? Even without them, I suspect the 300 has the early advantage both from its lower overall gearing and its higher torque. This would be emphasised in the case of heavier riders (speaking as one who is a bit more than the 92kg mentioned Embarrassed). Once speeds got over say 80km/h there might be little difference.

     

     

    The Red Menace
  • 11-09-2011 01:14 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    Iv ridden the 250 and the 300.....I would buy the 300 coz it absolutly flys - on take off and top end

  • 11-09-2011 01:16 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    waspmike:

    Mike,

    Isn't some of the 300 advantage in the fact that it comes standard with a 4-valve head? So won't adding a V4 head give both capacity scoots about the same. 

    PM tuning has a version of the Dobeck unit won't that be similar to the Malossi unit? Can richen the mixture a bit. BTW Dobeck units for scooters only have a Cruise and Wide Open setting because with CVT there is no "acceleration" mode like a bike with gears.

     Mike (other) but younger (just)

     

     

     No Mike, The earlier GT200 had a 2-valve head, but the 250 has always had a 4-valve head. It's the size of the valves in the Malossi head that makes the difference.

    I didn't know about the PM Dobeck unit. They certainly don't advertise it. Will have to do some Googling.

    Mike

     

     

  • 11-09-2011 01:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    OK, I googled the Dobeck unit, and found it is the PM TFI override, which I do know about. It is the same as the Super Corsa Power Commander but twice the price.

    These boxes are different to the Malossi unit in that they modify the TFI fuel signal. But the TFI measures the results at the Lambda sensor in the exhaust, picks up the change, and compensates for it thereby undoing the work of the Power Commander. I have tried one of these. and it did nothing for my bike's performance. It's now lying in a drawer in the shed!

    The Malossi unit uses a different approach. It intercepts the signal from the Lambda sensor, and modifies it to make the EFI think the mixture is too lean. So the EFI then makes the mixture richer.

    Mike

     

  • 11-09-2011 01:51 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    Silver flyer - I did not realise that you had the clutch done too! They make a good difference. I would love to try sans baffle, and would love to try a stock 300 vs yours. I reckon it would be very close

     

    Mike- was talking to a friend who owns a performance garage- he assures me he could turbo charge the Vespa- but was concerned about the ecu side of things. Where did you find the Malossi info? I will see what he things- if that would be sufficient for the task.

    Scarabeo 500ie. J costa variator, Giannelli Exhaust, Malossi Cam, Dr Pulley Clutch, and SX appeal cup holder. GONE

    Bought a ducati, missed scootering so now riding a Vespa 300 super. Polini variator, PM tuning exhaust, Malossi clutch springs jettin bar ends with mirrors, heated grips and still an SX appeal cup holder.
  • 11-09-2011 02:08 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    DaveO:

     Thanks, people. Fascinating stuff.

    I wonder how much difference the tuning bits make? Even without them, I suspect the 300 has the early advantage both from its lower overall gearing and its higher torque. This would be emphasised in the case of heavier riders (speaking as one who is a bit more than the 92kg mentioned Embarrassed). Once speeds got over say 80km/h there might be little difference.

     

     

    The tuning bits make quite a difference.  I've ridden a stock GTS 250 against Silverflyers GTS 250, and even with I suspect about 15kg less weight, he squirted past me at about 80kmh on his one.   Next test will be Silverflyers 250 versus a stock 300.    $7.8 plus about 1.2k in parts vs $8.8k.  Should be interesting.

     



    Ace Scooters - practitioners to the scooter addicted.

    www.acescooters.com.au
  • 11-09-2011 02:32 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    Mike Holland:

    OK, I googled the Dobeck unit, and found it is the PM TFI override, which I do know about. It is the same as the Super Corsa Power Commander but twice the price.

    These boxes are different to the Malossi unit in that they modify the TFI fuel signal. But the TFI measures the results at the Lambda sensor in the exhaust, picks up the change, and compensates for it thereby undoing the work of the Power Commander. I have tried one of these. and it did nothing for my bike's performance. It's now lying in a drawer in the shed!

    The Malossi unit uses a different approach. It intercepts the signal from the Lambda sensor, and modifies it to make the EFI think the mixture is too lean. So the EFI then makes the mixture richer.

    Mike

     

    Depending on application some dobeck units come with a Lambda plug which keeps the feedback constant. I will send you the email of the guy to talk to. Dobeck units are load based. Sounds like the Malossi unit is the same as the ECU "cheater" boxes we can buy here in Thailand for local scooters. They have inputs for altitude, air temp etc which fools the ECU into adding more fuel. The difference is that these boxes add fuel across the range. There are now even one which can be adjusted ie, adjust elevation, adjust air temp etc. 

    As you know Dobeck changes the duration of the injector pulse to either add or subtract fuel.

    Cost because it is common for UK stuff to be the same numerical value as US products but a different currency! Sadly. Apples are the same.:-)

     EDIT:

    Here is a common "cheater" box with explanation albiet in Thai 

    http://www.jrmotor.com/index.php?lay=boardshow&ac=webboard_show&No=1294037&WBntype=3

    APItechonline has the adjustable one with no explanation.

     

     

  • 11-10-2011 08:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    yes i want to try against a standard 300 too. but i also want to try on a longer bit of road.

    argentum melle
  • 11-10-2011 10:41 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    Is there any evedence that the 300 is geared lower? If a 250 is slightly faster at the top it maybe because the engine produes its power at a higher rpm. 

    If the gearing is the same then fitting a 300 with a 250 cam may pay dividends but I don't have a 300 to play with as they are over $11,000 here.

  • 03-23-2012 07:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    I have now had my Malossi Lambda Emulastor installed for about three weeks, and am very satisfied with it. My scooter definitely has better acceleration, reaching 120 kph much more quickly, but not much difference beyond that. My top speed is still about 135 kph according to the speedo.

    On my test hill on the F3 freeway, when it was still standard, my scooter came over the top at 95 kph after hitting the hill at 120 kph. With the Polini variator and Malossi cylinder and head, it came over the top at 115 kph. Now it will accelerate up the hill from 90 kph, and come over the top at 118!

    And take-off when I open the throttle to overtake is breathtaking.

    Mike .  

  • 03-23-2012 07:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

     Big SmileBig SmileBig Smile



    Ace Scooters - practitioners to the scooter addicted.

    www.acescooters.com.au
  • 03-23-2012 08:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

    Big SmileBig SmileBig Smile 

  • 03-23-2012 10:27 PM In reply to

    Re: Vespa 300 performance

     Did I say something funny? Geeked

    My scooter goes like a bomb, and I am sure it is the most powerrful one around (unlelss someone has fitted a V4 kit to a 300 and kept quiet about it). But I'm sure its not the fastest.

    I just wish I could let you sceptics try it out and see for yourselves. Cool  If anyone in the Sydney area would like to see for themselves, just contact me and we can arrange something. 

    Mike

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