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3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

Last post 08-11-2012 10:48 PM by ferrix. 27 replies.
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  • 08-11-2012 12:38 PM In reply to

    • vortexau
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    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    I really wonder what critea the two of you, ferrix and pyrah, use to base your judgment?

    ferrix- You do realize that at 265kg the BMW C evolution scales 13kg lighter than a Suzuki Burgman 650?

    Then concerning that French publication's road test. Was the test vehicle a production model with a full charge at pick-up, one with less than full charge, or solely a pre-production prototype with less than optimum condition?

     . . . . . . . . .

    In todays C-M in the CarsGuide (motoring section) occupying the Prestige page (p32) we find the subject material is the forthcoming BMW ActiveHybrid S automobile which has a list price of $122,900.  Are you telling me that BMW are wasting their time marketing such an expensive car in Australia?

     . . . . . . . . .

    Repeat to me the RANGE and PRICE of the 1902 Phaeton built by the Woods Motor Vehicle Company of Chicago.  Now, please tell me if that vehicle had poor sales?

    During that era (centred about the 1899-1900 mid-point) when electric-powered automobiles ruled, the majority of purchasers simply bought them outright by plonking down the required $1000 to $3000 on the cashier's desk. The electric automobile was often a Town Car while a steamer or motor spirit model was kept for country driving.

    year by year multiplyer

     . . . . . . . . .

    I would judge that BMW's forthcoming C evolution is not for everyone!

    I would venture that-

    (a)  20% - 33% of potential owners would have prior BMW ownership, or failing that prior ownership of another prestige brand.

    (b)  40% of potential owners would have noticable Green Credentials.

    (c)  7% of potential owners would be investigating it solely from its perceived 'Cool Factor'.

    So, I have questions for both of you based on (a) & (b) above.  MY QUESTIONS to BOTH of you are-

    (a) (prestige ownership) How many BMWs have either of YOU owned?

    (b) (Green Credentials- You can duck this if you are an appartment dweller)  What is the most polluting device most folk use in their backyard (60 times more than a car) and have you ever used, owned, or sought to own the electric-powered competition to this device.

     

    __________________
    Marty McFly:
    Does it run like on, on regular unleaded gasoline?
    Dr. Emmett L. Brown:
    Unfortunately, no. It requires something with a little more kick . . . plutonium!
  • 08-11-2012 01:20 PM In reply to

    • vortexau
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    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    If anyone wonders what a Woods Electric looked like; below are two:

    Woods Electric

    1899 Woods Electric

     

    1902 woods E Phaeton

    __________________
    Marty McFly:
    Does it run like on, on regular unleaded gasoline?
    Dr. Emmett L. Brown:
    Unfortunately, no. It requires something with a little more kick . . . plutonium!
  • 08-11-2012 01:45 PM In reply to

    • vortexau
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    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    pyrah:

     If the battery's give a range of 100 kilometers when new does there performance drop off with age plus still cant find in the BMW spiel the scooters range at 110 kph

    What information did Peter give you in this regard?

    You could take what Vectrix riders report for some indication, but remember that the 2007 Vectrix used Lead-Acid storage rather than the Lithium-based storage of the C evolution.

    "The only drawback is the range: One should plan carefully open road trips because of the limited energy stores in the battery. I'm planning to buy the lithium upgrade that will be avaiable by the end of 2008, wich wiñlll contain more than 7 kwh! With this upgrade, i'll be able to increase my range from 40 km to 80km!" -review by focovere

    seeing the above history lesson the first land speed record set in 1898 at 66 mph was an electric car Geeked

    Killacycle

    The KillaCycle holds current (pun) record for electric-powered dragbikes.

    Zero to 60 mph in less than one second.The film crew was not prepared for the acceleration on the launch. After the first run, they said, “It was on the starting line…and then it was just GONE!”

    __________________
    Marty McFly:
    Does it run like on, on regular unleaded gasoline?
    Dr. Emmett L. Brown:
    Unfortunately, no. It requires something with a little more kick . . . plutonium!
  • 08-11-2012 01:57 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    vortexau:

    ferrix- You do realize that at 265kg the BMW C evolution scales 13kg lighter than a Suzuki Burgman 650?

    Of course I do. I also notice very few people buy Burgman 650 as their city runabout. I repeat, the gist of my argument and of my beef with this machine is that (as far as I am concerned) it only works at short range - in which role it is thoroughly outperformed by smaller, cheaper, conventional machines.

    vortexau:
    Repeat to me the RANGE and PRICE of the 1902 Phaeton built by the Woods Motor Vehicle Company of Chicago

    Irrelevant. Those were the pioneering days, when a vehicle - any vehicle - offered genuinely new capability to their owner. It is not the case now - electric vehicles are functionally NO DIFFERENT to conventional ones we already have. Different source of power aside, they take you from A to B just like any car/motorcycle would, but with more limitations and at much higher price. That's why I insist that in order to be taken seriously, they have to be price competitve with what we already have - otherwise we are going backwards. I do not want to go backwards.

    vortexau:
    (a) (prestige ownership) How many BMWs have either of YOU owned?

    One. I had a BMW 318i a few years back, in my yuppie phase. I got over it :)

    vortexau:
    b) (Green Credentials- You can duck this if you are an appartment dweller)  What is the most polluting device most folk use in their backyard (60 times more than a car) and have you ever used, owned, or sought to own the electric-powered competition to this device.

    I guess you are referring to lawn mowers? I don't own one, never sought electric-powered alternative and I have zero 'green credentials' nor do I seek any. I know the supply of oil is limited and environment concern or not, we will have to find alternatives. But I don't want it to mean we are going back to 1902 when ownership of any vehicle was reserved for the richest! That perhaps is the root of my problem with electric vehicles as they are sold today - just like they did in 1902 they offer pedestrian performance at luxury prices and I just don't like the way this is all going.

    PS...

    vortexau:
    Then concerning that French publication's road test. Was the test vehicle a production model with a full charge at pick-up, one with less than full charge, or solely a pre-production prototype with less than optimum condition?

    Yes, it was a pre-production sample. But they invited journos to test ride it, however briefly. So what do you think - is it more likely they topped up the batteries, or that they let it out half-empty... knowing full well that the 'range anxiety' is one of the major stumbling blocks they face?

  • 08-11-2012 02:19 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

     Guess we will wait to see what the sales figures are to find out if its wanted or not Smile 

    Si ‘Thi’ later
  • 08-11-2012 02:52 PM In reply to

    • vortexau
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    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    ferrix:

    vortexau:
    Repeat to me the RANGE and PRICE of the 1902 Phaeton built by the Woods Motor Vehicle Company of Chicago

    Irrelevant. Those were the pioneering days, when a vehicle - any vehicle - offered genuinely new capability to their owner. It is not the case now - electric vehicles are functionally NO DIFFERENT to conventional ones we already have. Different source of power aside, they take you from A to B just like any car/motorcycle would, but with more limitations and at much higher price. That's why I insist that in order to be taken seriously, they have to be price competitve with what we already have - otherwise we are going backwards. I do not want to go backwards.

    If you judge that as irrelevant then you are missing my point.  Many electrics shared the stable (garages in later years) with a steamer or a motor-spirit model.  The owners who were very well off just choise the model to suit their journey.

    vortexau:
    (a) (prestige ownership) How many BMWs have either of YOU owned?

    One. I had a BMW 318i a few years back, in my yuppie phase. I got over it :)

    I really meant- How many BMW motorcycles in YOUR regard?  I owned my first, a R50/5, at the age of 21.  In 1970 the airhead was the premier riding choice to get from A to B in comfort and without fuss.  My present one is a '77 R100RS powered sidecar combination.  The smallest capacity BMW that I have owned was a R25.  But since I worked blue-collar employment, ALL of those were Second-Hand.  Also, I've never had the funds for other than a s/h car.

    vortexau:
    b) (Green Credentials- You can duck this if you are an appartment dweller)  What is the most polluting device most folk use in their backyard (60 times more than a car) and have you ever used, owned, or sought to own the electric-powered competition to this device.

    I guess you are referring to lawn mowers? I don't own one, never sought electric-powered alternative and I have zero 'green credentials' nor do I seek any. I know the supply of oil is limited and environment concern or not, we will have to find alternatives. But I don't want it to mean we are going back to 1902 when ownership of any vehicle was reserved for the richest! That perhaps is the root of my problem with electric vehicles as they are sold today - just like they did in 1902 they offer pedestrian performance at luxury prices and I just don't like the way this is all going.

    Whereas I've used a Sunbeam AC, a Flymo AC, and lastly owned a Bosch AC.  Electric mowers are not "going back to 1902".  I'd done my research on which Cordless models offer the best value, and followed the web-dialog of two who've converted their rideons for an average cost of $1000 each.  The running cost saving is just one aspect but I really like the aspect that the motor stops when the operator stops. One doesn't let go of the handle and risk amputated fingers keeping the base clear like with a petrol throwback.  Same with Cordless Whippersnippers- no centrifugal clutch, just an On Switch. The sound is easier to bear also.

    Ariens AMP™ Rider

    Ariens AMP™ Rider electric rideon mower- No clutch or gears to shift, and no ear protectors required!

    People with money are the early adoptors, and the ones who bear all the grief while the product in question is still being sorted out.  You should be thanking them.  If early adopters hadn't bought all those $5,000 XTs & ATs; just where do you think these cheap Dual-core Windows 7 systems would be today?  There is a FIFTY-year gap in the on-going development of EVs . . . . no wonder todays Unleaded vehicles & tools are so advanced.  Keep in mind that whatever range you get with internal combustion- a good 75-80% of the energy is simply wasted as heat and noise.

    I do believe that something other than batteries is going to kick EV technology further forward.  Fuel Cells perhaps?  But without enough buyers keeping EVs in current use . . . . . the development funding may begin to fade.

    PS...

    vortexau:
    Then concerning that French publication's road test. Was the test vehicle a production model with a full charge at pick-up, one with less than full charge, or solely a pre-production prototype with less than optimum condition?

    Yes, it was a pre-production sample. But they invited journos to test ride it, however briefly. So what do you think - is it more likely they topped up the batteries, or that they let it out half-empty... knowing full well that the 'range anxiety' is one of the major stumbling blocks they face?

    Hardly.  With journos waiting in line for a ride, there's a good chance that one of them would take over the C and find the charge was now only 2.5% remaining.  You don't know what happens at Press Test Days . . . . . sometimes its just open slather.  Have YOU ever loaned a car or bike to someone who's treated it roughly?  Human nature ("I don't own it so who cares"?!?)

    I have zero 'green credentials' nor do I seek any.

    Clean Up Australia folk

     

    So, you're part of the problem 'eh?

     

    __________________
    Marty McFly:
    Does it run like on, on regular unleaded gasoline?
    Dr. Emmett L. Brown:
    Unfortunately, no. It requires something with a little more kick . . . plutonium!
  • 08-11-2012 03:30 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    vortexau:
    If you judge that as irrelevant then you are missing my point.  Many electrics shared the stable (garages in later years) with a steamer or a motor-spirit model.  The owners who were very well off just choise the model to suit their journey.

    Well, you asked about price and range, not whether they were the sole vehicle. The answer to your question was, they were limited in range and very expensive (pretty much as they are today then!). The fact they shared the stable with other limited and expensive machines doesn't change that. Back in 1902 owning a motorised vehicle of any kind was reserved for the rich few and that is my point - that is not something I want to go back to.

    My other point is that early adopter situation doesn't totally apply here and not only because as you pointed out yourself, electric vehicles are anything but new. There is a very important difference between early personal computers, early TV sets and such and electric vehicles: PCs and Tvs were complete game changers - electric vehicles are not. At the end of the day, they merely run on different source of power.

  • 08-11-2012 04:32 PM In reply to

    • vortexau
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    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    ferrix:

    vortexau:
    If you judge that as irrelevant then you are missing my point.  Many electrics shared the stable (garages in later years) with a steamer or a motor-spirit model.  The owners who were very well off just choise the model to suit their journey.

    Well, you asked about price and range, not whether they were the sole vehicle. The answer to your question was, they were limited in range . . .

    That I did and THAT range was 18 miles. So, are YOU seriously telling me that there has been no progress at all, with EVs?

     . . . and very expensive (pretty much as they are today then!).

    Whoa! Back up there!  If you claim that the price is just "much as they are today", you must have no concept of 1900 values.  The ordinary (blue collar) worker simply could not afford a $2000 - $3000 vehicle in 1900 values.  Basically, that did not change until the T-model Ford's price dropped by a factor of Two/Thirds to sub$500! 

    Although higher in price than the Burgman Exec (AU$1299 or so), a C evolution at $1500 - 1600 is in no way out of reach like a 1900 electric.  You're seriously astray there!  The C evolution undercuts 95% of Harley Davidsons and quite possibly even the Gilera GP 800 maxi-scooter (to name another scooter).  To price the C evolution at a 1900 cpomparative level would mean a figure like $48,000!

    The fact they shared the stable with other limited and expensive machines doesn't change that. Back in 1902 owning a motorised vehicle of any kind was reserved for the rich few and that is my point - that is not something I want to go back to.

    Your point is pointless!  There is no indication that EVs competing with basic motor vehicles will be priced in the range of  $40,000 - $400,000.  Whence cometh your phobias?

    My other point is that early adopter situation doesn't totally apply here and not only because as you pointed out yourself, electric vehicles are anything but new.

    Not new but struggling with a FIFTY Year developmental gap.  Lead Acid batteries featured in a good 95% of yesteryear's models.  EVs of just FIVE years ago were still using Lead Acid.  Then take the Nickel-iron battery developed by Thomas Edison!  In use for 72 years and lagely un-improved before its 1975 demise.   Yet it was so durable that it could last in use for more than 20 years. 

    Whatever you really mean it is impossible to deny that EVs have not shared the same level (and commitment) of development & funding as has the noxious internal-combustion motor.

    There is a very important difference between early personal computers, early TV sets and such and electric vehicles: PCs and Tvs were complete game changers - electric vehicles are not.

    What is YOUR critea for the term "game changers"?  (See what follows)

    At the end of the day, they merely run on different source of power.

     

    That's ALL they mean to you?  They simply "run on different source of power"?

    A  motor that Stops and Goes with the motion of the vehicle?  That begins spinning by itself without an auxiliary motor (and that electric)?  A motor that delivers FULL Torque from just off stationary?  A motor that can be run in enclosed spaces without killing bystanders?  A motor so small that in some applications a motor can be mounted inside each individual wheel?  A motor that is 80 - 85% efficient when stood against the 20% efficient I.C. motor?

    A motor so clean, and that can be scaled small enough to be used inside blood vessels in living human beings?

    So, at the end of YOUR Day they are merely running on a different source of power?

    Gee - you don't get out much, do you?

     

     

    __________________
    Marty McFly:
    Does it run like on, on regular unleaded gasoline?
    Dr. Emmett L. Brown:
    Unfortunately, no. It requires something with a little more kick . . . plutonium!
  • 08-11-2012 04:46 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    vortexau:
    So, at the end of YOUR Day they are merely running on a different source of power?

    Yes, indeed. For the purpose of this argument I am a user, not an engineer. Someone who barely knows how to open the bonnet... what does someone like that care if the motor spins by itself or its torque curve or even size? He gets into the car and he drives, period. So that is my definition of game changer: something that provides dramatically different functionality to the user. A flying or self-driving car would be a game changer. Electric vehicles are not, not on that level.

    I am talking about commercial electric vehicles in particular, not about every other possible application of electric motors.

    Edit:

    vortexau:
    There is no indication that EVs competing with basic motor vehicles will be priced in the range of  $40,000 - $400,000.

    Actually, there is more than an indication - it is the current reality. Electric cars such as iMiev and Leaf do cost well over 40,000 on our market and they do compete with the most basic 15,000 cars as far as their functionality and performance goes.

  • 08-11-2012 05:58 PM In reply to

    • vortexau
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    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    ferrix:

    vortexau:
    So, at the end of YOUR Day they are merely running on a different source of power?

    Yes, indeed. For the purpose of this argument I am a user, not an engineer. Someone who barely knows how to open the bonnet... what does someone like that care if the motor spins by itself or its torque curve or even size? He gets into the car and he drives, period.

    Nonchalance & Apathy?  In record levels?  You'd just get into that car and drive, period?  You don't care what's under the bonnet?  Or even if its doing a half-good job?

    So that is my definition of game changer: something that provides dramatically different functionality to the user. Electric vehicles do not, not on that level.

    I am talking about commercial electric vehicles in particular, not about every other possible application of electric motors.

    Maybe not to you but to millions of other inhabitants of our world - things cannot keep going the same old carefree way.  Just like cigarette smoking is slowly being closed-in to smaller and smaller boundaries, noxious petrochemical-combustion fumes are reaching their end of carefree propogation.

    Vehicle emission major source of air pollution

    "According to the annual report on prevention and control of vehicle pollution, the volume of pollutants generated by motor vehicles across China in 2009 amounted to 51.4 million tons, with cars contributing most of it.

    In a second statement issued along with the report, one-third of 113 major cities failed the air quality test in 2009.

    Meanwhile, acid rain and smog have occurred so frequently in certain regions of China that some areas were shrouded in smog for 200 days during the year. Vehicle emissions should be blamed for much of this smog, according to the statement."

    Do you realize, ferrix, that China and Australia are political land occupancy districts (both BIG ones) on the same planet?  What gets in their air can get in our air?  What rubbish and poision they breathe in; the same stuff we can also breathe ?

    "However, the report also showed that the emission of pollutants had been growing, but at a lower rate since 2000, which should be attributed to efforts to phase out high-emission vehicles."

    The future for electric car startup tech is in China

    "Money from Chinese investors, conglomerates, cities and the government, continues to drive a significant amount of the future of next-generation technology for electric cars.

    China is already the world’s largest auto market, so it’s not that surprising that it would lead on electric vehicle technology development, too. As the Financial Times once put it: “The Middle Kingdom is increasingly claiming its place as the centre of gravity of the automotive world.”. . . “This is a 30m market by 2020 – it will be the dominant market in the world.”

    Protean’s technology is an electric motor that is housed within a vehicle’s wheel and can be used for hybrid, plug-in hybrid and electric cars. Protean says the motor system reduces complexity, adds torque and increases power."

    Think on this!  The world's population is increasing.  The number of drivers, and the number of motor vehicles is increasing at a sharper curve still.  Our atmosphere has little chance of being able to support air-breathing life when air polution reaches yellow sky conditions world wide.

    "On one famous occasion it got so bad that birds fell dead out of the sky on to the Zocalo, the city's main square. Throughout the developing world, smogs in many big cities are getting worse as more people use cars . . .

    The air in Asia's cities, like the water in its rivers, is particularly unhealthy, containing levels of dust and smoke several times higher than in the rich countries' cities.

    Environmentalists in the developed world also worry about air pollution in poorer countries, not just out of the goodness of their hearts but because they fear it may affect their own backyard."

    air hazehaze in china

     

    "Tuesday 10 April 2012

    On January 6, China's government announced that it would begin releasing previously unavailable daily readings of fine particulate pollution — called "PM 2.5" because the particles are less than 2.5 microns in diameter — in Beijing.Although small in size, such pollution is especially detrimental to human health because the particles are minute enough to burrow into the lungs and bloodstream."

    In Australia Ford is cutting back, and shrinking their production.  Meanwhile Holden is set to introduce new tech automobiles:

    LONG RANGE ELECTRIC HOLDEN VOLT

    • Extended range capability (over 600km)
    • Advanced technology

    There is no standing still - ferrix!  One either progresses or one regresses!

    head in the sand

     

    Or, is it just that sand can do a passable job as a filter?

    Sand filters

    So, we dissolve poluted air in water and pass it through sand to clean the water?  Then extract clean air from the liquid? (I digress)

    Not really just Head-in-the-sand?  I fear that Nonchalance & Apathy are your major attributes, ferrix.

    __________________
    Marty McFly:
    Does it run like on, on regular unleaded gasoline?
    Dr. Emmett L. Brown:
    Unfortunately, no. It requires something with a little more kick . . . plutonium!
  • 08-11-2012 06:33 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    vortexau:
    Think on this!  The world's population is increasing. 

    Indeed, and in my view that increase of population is the core issue and as long as it continues, attempting to reduce pollution and consumption per capita only postpones the inevitable. However that is another discussion that  I feel is well beyond the scope of this forum.

     

  • 08-11-2012 08:44 PM In reply to

    • vortexau
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-25-2008
    • Plainland Q, on the Warrego Hwy
    • Posts 462

    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    ferrix:

    vortexau:
    Think on this!  The world's population is increasing. 

    Indeed, and in my view that increase of population is the core issue and as long as it continues, attempting to reduce pollution and consumption per capita only postpones the inevitable. However that is another discussion that  I feel is well beyond the scope of this forum.

     

    Scope?  Not quite.  We risk being at a loss for breathable air long -- long -- before we begin to suffer being crushed under the greater mass of excess population.

    How to solve the problem of limited access to breathable air??  We do have one solution. A solution that does not involve extruding poisonous gases from compounding numbers of motor vehicles, whether 125cc or 250cc.

    ........................................................................................................................................

    BTW- Its good that you posted back for I seek your clarification.

     A bit earlier ferrix, I noticed, that you were emphatic that BMW's offering " only works at short range - in which role it is thoroughly outperformed by smaller, cheaper, conventional machines."

    In my understanding being "outperformed" mostly means out-accelerated, left behind at the lights, and all that!

    So you claim that 125cc motor scooters out-accelerate the BMW C evolution.

    This leaves me rather puzzled for I do believe that my Burgman Exec with its DOHC parallel twin 54hp engine is able to out-accelerate the average 11-12hp 125cc scooter, yet I tend to subscribe to the notion that an electric maxi scooter, possessing maximum torque off the line, and with 11 kW continuous output and a 35 kW peak output will be able to leave a Burgman such as mine behind at the lights?

    True - my power figure converts to 40kW against the 35kW peak figure of the C, but I have read that short-range electric racing motorcycles are quite a match (pound for pound) against ICE motorcycles THREE-TIMES greater in power as measured in kW.  The reason is that the electric motor produces maximum torque right off from stationary. This means that to match the C you'll be needing a scooter with 105kW if its weight and rate of power delivery are to be anywhere comparable!

    So, ferrix, just how do YOU get 52kW (we'll halve the power to match half the mass) out of a 125cc scooter with 12hp (9kW)?  Where does the rider get access to the missing 43kW?

    And if you prefer that a nominal 125cc scooter may only weigh One/Third the C's mass; we'll correspondingly reduce the required kW to just 35kW.  Same sort of problem.  Where does the 125cc scooter rider find those missing 26kW(s)?

     

     

    __________________
    Marty McFly:
    Does it run like on, on regular unleaded gasoline?
    Dr. Emmett L. Brown:
    Unfortunately, no. It requires something with a little more kick . . . plutonium!
  • 08-11-2012 10:48 PM In reply to

    Re: 3rd BMW maxiscooter unveiled

    vortexau:

     A bit earlier ferrix, I noticed, that you were emphatic that BMW's offering " only works at short range - in which role it is thoroughly outperformed by smaller, cheaper, conventional machines."

    In my understanding being "outperformed" mostly means out-accelerated, left behind at the lights, and all that!

    I apologise, as indeed I didn't use the right term. I am not talking about outright performance - obviously there are plenty of machines that will outrun a small scooter, not only Burgman but also all superbikes... or indeed, most bikes. Nevertheless many of them would be less suitable for the role of city commuter! So in this case  I am not talking about figures such as acceleration or top speed - I mean how well it suits (performs) its role. In this case for example I don't think that a machine as bulky and expensive as this scooter, or a Burgman, or a Harley Davidson Electra Glide (over 360kg wet) is as well suited to the role as smaller, lighter and cheaper machines.

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